The "nice guy" thread...

[Duck_of_Death]

God knows the users on Per C can't pass up an opportunity to either bash them or immolate themselves.
So I say let's do it here without all of the bells, whistles and bullshit surrounding it.

We're not required to be "politically correct" on the ISTP sanctum--am I right? Am I right?

Do women really dig those "jerks" and pass on all those poor "nice guys"?
And are all those "nice guys" enacting some low-cost strategy to get some action?

Thoughts?

[Siren]

God knows the users on Per C can't pass up an opportunity to either bash them or immolate themselves.
So I say let's do it here without all of the bells, whistles and bullshit surrounding it.

We're not required to be "politically correct" on the ISTP sanctum--am I right? Am I right?

Do women really dig those "jerks" and pass on all those poor "nice guys"?
And are all those "nice guys" enacting some low-cost strategy to get some action?

Thoughts?

In my experience, the nice guys were boring. They didn't bring much to the table. Either that or they were doormats I couldnt respect.
So called bad boys may not treat us right but they are exciting. The trick is not to fall for them too hard but still enjoy the time you're together. That's hard to do when you're young, when love tends to be all or nothing.

[DJ Arendee]

Being a nice guy is too expensive.

[MXZCCT]

You have to find the balance between the two.

[Erbse]

Issue is that the feminist movement has been taken so far, that is has gotten common and well accepted to bash down on men (possibly even collectively), while any resistance gets met with the 'you just think women belong into the kitchen' stereotype BS. Only real feminists would ever acknowledge that issue, though, as they have not forgotten that equality was the initial goal, rather than throwing the opposite gender into submission and turmoil. It's like the racism card that gets pulled if you objectively believe that there are too many immigrants living in your country. Saying such a thing does not imply you hate or despise them whatsoever.

The whole issue reminds me of left wingers vs. racists, trying to fight extremism with extremism, thinking it'd eventually accomplish anything, when in reality it never will.

What a nice guy suffers from the most, or what I used to anyway, was my lack of confrontation potential - I steadily been tolerant and shrugged it, mostly because I could and didn't care much. The rush I'm getting out of butting heads is awesome, though (revitalizing, almost) - you just have get used to it, much like everything else in life.

Don't back down, but also don't start shit until anyone else starts it, that way you're free to do what you want and wreak havoc if pushed to it.

[MXZCCT]

I take my earlier statement back.

Be whatever the fuck you want to be, and make it work.

[Duck_of_Death]

I'm not looking for advice--I want no part in this human tragedy. I wash my hands of it.

I want a big picture overview featuring three prominent players: "Bad boy", "Nice Guy" and the "Princess."

Go.

[khys]

i don't understand

[DJ Arendee]

Issue is that the feminist movement has been taken so far, that is has gotten common and well accepted to bash down on men (possibly even collectively), while any resistance gets met with the 'you just think women belong into the kitchen' stereotype BS. Only real feminists would ever acknowledge that issue, though, as they have not forgotten that equality was the initial goal, rather than throwing the opposite gender into submission and turmoil. It's like the racism card that gets pulled if you objectively believe that there are too many immigrants living in your country. Saying such a thing does not imply you hate or despise them whatsoever.

The whole issue reminds me of left wingers vs. racists, trying to fight extremism with extremism, thinking it'd eventually accomplish anything, when in reality it never will.

What a nice guy suffers from the most, or what I used to anyway, was my lack of confrontation potential - I steadily been tolerant and shrugged it, mostly because I could and didn't care much. The rush I'm getting out of butting heads is awesome, though (revitalizing, almost) - you just have get used to it, much like everything else in life.

Don't back down, but also don't start shit until anyone else starts it, that way you're free to do what you want and wreak havoc if pushed to it.

Its confusing, because I still meet women who want to be a housewife and just help out around the house. I get confused because there is this societal message engrained in my mind that its bad to think women should take care of that kind of stuff.

[Duck_of_Death]

i don't understand

I want a big picture approach to this; it is a Ti exercise at it's core.
I wanna conclusive "study": boiling the issue down to the essence of truth.

If you need a referential point, I'd recommend the Sex and Relationships subforum on Personality Cafe...where tons of "nice guys" pour their hearts out while the cooler-than-thou hipster chicks sling mud at them.

I will post my thoughts on all of this later on.

[Erbse]

Its confusing, because I still meet women who want to be a housewife and just help out around the house. I get confused because there is this societal message engrained in my mind that its bad to think women should take care of that kind of stuff.

Ironically these women seem to get bashed on indirectly as well these days, rather than being respected for their choice.

It's not that women should per se, but should if they want to. I'm flexible enough to not assign roles to gender, much like I'll never budge from the things I want to do. Thus, no, I will not become a stay home dad, ever - that is under the assumption I'll wind up being a dad some day. If she doesn't either, well, then no kids. Simple as that, really.

Feminism has turned into a bandwagon of hypocrites that have no clue what feminism initially wanted to archive and fought for - it's easy for everyone with tits and a vag to jump on and start talking crap out their ass to excuse their own shortcomings blaming others.

As I previously stated, a few true feminists will acknowledge the issue that men these days are the suppressed/confused gender in this day and age (not necessarily career wise, but most certainly in all other aspects, with child custody being the #1 probably - this applies only looking at the 1st world countries, of course) - Men are brought up with the ideology that aggression = bad (and primitive), thus their aggression potential gets suppressed (much like mine was compromised) while women's aggression potential has the opposite development, they go balls to the wall causing a shift in the gender dynamics leaving manhood as whole confused or doormats for that matter.

People need to realize that aggression in itself is not bad, and neither does it equal violence. Aggression is a well required natural feature people need to stand their ground firmly - it'll only equal violence if the person in question never learned to handle it constructively. All energy can either be used constructively, or destructively.

The book I've read concerning the topic (the best so far) unfortunately doesn't seem to exist in English, otherwise I'd highly recommend it, for men and women (parents anyway) alike.

Anyway, as I said, while a few feminists will acknowledge the rut manhood has fallen into, it is not their job to fight for men rights, but men's. Here's another issue though, whenever you speak of men rights everyone will automatically assume you're conservative and want women to be back in the kitchen doing nothing by cooking and providing BJs at will.

Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not promoting an anti feminism crusade but merely trying to get some people to revamp their world view and behavior along.

[Siren]

I think it largely boils down to the fact that a lot of people don't take the time to look at themselves critically to determine what they want out of life and where they want life to take them. Until you have a fairly good grasp on that then it's difficult to find someone who shares these goals. So people end up not having any idea what they want in a relationship.

[Brosephina]

Erbse got it right. Also agree with Siren.

It's true that men will have to stand for their own rights, but they can't do it by embracing the playboy generation ideology, as much as women cannot get very far by embracing the ultra feminist one. Both are acting like tools, and want the cake + eat it.

==============

To come back on the main question, and why it's so confusing. The feminist and playboy ideologies enforced different types of men/women. Once ones knows what she/he wants, it's kind of easy to know which type they should target. Main issue is that people want a mix of all these types, without concessions.

Big lines for Duck_of_death:

Keep in mind that it's all a matter of perception.

Bad Boy = is perceived by some women as Father's figure/strong protector/power/initiative. Unfortunately, this guy knows what to say to women to get them, but is unreliable on long term. Often imitated by the good guys. Has friends, games, cars, porn as real priority. Ends up secretly envying his friends who got families. Dies alone and depressed at 54yo.

The TOO Good Guy = may be perceived as not acting like an adult man with self-respect, therefore, may not be a good "potential-father". This type can become either a bad boy or a normal good guy. Has an aura of desperate guy that princess type 1) can abuse and that princess type 4) hates. May end up with a control freak feminist, or a type 1) princess if he got money. Often raised by princess-mom type 2) and may be stuck in a loop.

The Good Guy = the real majority of men. Balanced, not a woman-hunter, may be a bit confused, does his own business until he meets the right princess. Wants fun but serious loving relationship. May consider family with the right princess. This type always ends up being noticed by the princess type 4)... if he doesn't try to imitate the bad guy's behaviors. Often get hurt by the princess type 1) and princess type 3). Prefers to be alone than be with a princess type 2).

Princess = 4 types of princess

1) the manly-woman who doesn't want to act like a respectable woman worth a good man's respect/protection. Provocative, misleading, vulgar, low moral values, wants to be loved but doesn't really know how. Also known as whore. Perceived as the most popular by the princess type 2) and 4). Sometimes role model for princess type 3). Reinforces bad image of women.

2) the idealist feminist. Wants a doormat (probably like her father or absent father). Not always feminine, strong, very pc, in control, doesn't cherish her own femininity and becomes an ugly short hair or fat woman once married or after she got kids. In long relationships, may cause a good guy to become an alcoholic, a cheater or make him fall into a catatonic state. This type creates the Bad Boy or Too Good Guy type of men if she gets kids.

3) the newly-adult-woman who doesn't know yet what she wants or what she is. Usually between 18-23yo., heartbreaker, experimenting her new female power, but can become later a type 1) 2) or 4). May abuse the "crying-card". May look rational.

4) the "could-be-mom", feminine, caring, modest and has self-respect. Not always the prettiest at first look, but still charming somehow. Wants loving relationship. Happy. May be surprising in bed, but doesn't look like it. Also known as "the natural". Thinks most men prefer type 1) princess. May become a type 1) or 2) princess if really desperate or frustrated. Still, this is the type of princess men should look for to be happy.

It may sound cliché, but the reality is simple: even if people have no intention of having a family, the qualities required for an healthy relationship are the same required to raise a good family.

Re-evaluate priorities when selecting a partner. Target your type. Investigate the family and moral values of the potential partner. Don't cry if you choose wrongly; learn. Don't try to save or change people.

If a woman always goes for the bad boys, this woman probably doesn't have the qualities to be a good gf/wife. So in the end, even if the good guys feel like they're not being appreciated as much as they should be, maybe they're not going for the right princess either! Same for women.

- the end -

[khys]

^^ Is this a comprehensive list of types?

I'm curious as to where ISTP women fit into all this.

Our indifference must surely be seen by some as "friend-zoning"

[Duck_of_Death]

Damn, bro. Took the words right out of my mouth.

From your definition I'm a Bad Boy with a Manly-Woman wing. Maybe I should get some tats, piercings, a Harley, etc.

And bitch about the patriarchy.
Drop the F bomb in more frequency, too.