Alexithymia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexithymia

Any thoughts on this and perhaps inferior Fe correlation?

I somehwhat try to make connections between the extroverted approach towards psychology and the introverted (occasionally anyway) - but I'm a tad torn on this one, especially since I identify scarily much. Meh, that, or I'm just projecting.

Anyway, bed time.

Hmm.

My most recent ex would definitely agree to this in reference to myself. I can make a few connections to the diagnosis but I do not think I fit it completely.

There are similarities between inferior Fe and this psychological diagnosis but the two do not go hand in hand simply because of the nature of typing personalities in MBTI.

MXZCCT wrote:There are similarities between inferior Fe and this psychological diagnosis but the two do not go hand in hand simply because of the nature of typing personalities in MBTI.

Exactly the reason as to why I'm asking for additional input, as I can only draw conclusions from my own behaviour, and I seem to fit. Mostly anyway.

my ISTP ex is like that.

I wouldn't say I have alexithymia, although I do have a difficult time articulating my emotions. And sometimes I have trouble distinguishing between more nuanced emotions in myself. But I don't relate to the restricted imagination or lack of empathy.

I used to be that way. I don't think its a disorder, just takes practice, much like talking about art.

DJ Arendee wrote:[...] much like talking about art.

That doesn't take fucking practice, one just has to have the most boring life in history.

Anyway, I'm a merciless cold bastard.

Fuck empathy, I don't go around demanding it, either.

Pussies!

But I don't relate to the restricted imagination or lack of empathy.

Unfortunately(?) I relate to both. Not caring so much about the latter than the former, though. Although, I'm not quite sure what 'restricted imagination' is defined as.

I just live day in day out, no goals, no dreams. Keeps the disappointment at bay. Be a whole different subject if I was allowed to kill douchbags, though.

Quoted from: http://www.alexithymia.us/info_Alexithymia-Description_14.html

Confusion of physical sensations often associated with emotions; few dreams or fantasies due to restricted imagination; and concrete, realistic, logical thinking, often to the exclusion of emotional responses to problems.

In general, these individuals lack imagination, intuition, empathy, and drive-fulfillment fantasy, especially in relation to objects. Instead, they seem oriented toward things and even treat themselves as robots.

(Although I wonder what the difference between 'objects' and 'things' is)

The distinguishing factor was their inability to elaborate beyond a few limited adjectives such as "happy" or "unhappy" when describing these feelings.

This contributes to the sense of emotional detachment from themselves and difficulty connecting with others, making alexithymia negatively associated with life satisfaction even when depression and other confounding factors are controlled for.

It's like I'm Will from 'Good Will Hunting', except that math can suck my balls for all I care and I'd never drive a shabby car across the country for romance's sake.

Talk about a shitty ending

I don't lack empathy, but I just don't have it for everybody. I have trouble feeling empathy for people, unless I have direct experience in a similar situation to theirs. And I can't do sympathy at all. My INFJ mom will be in tears over people she doesn't know, say if their dad dies, and I feel nothing. And more often than not, if I feel empathy, I won't express it outwardly.

As for 'restricted imagination', I'm not completely sure what they mean by that either. But, I have a vivid imagination, always have, and my intuition has always been strong, cognitively speaking.

But given that the most ISTPs will relate to the first two criteria from the Wiki page, I can see how it could seem like we all have alexithymia. There was actually an old thread about this on PerC in the ISTP forum. I'll have to dig it up. [Edit:] Here's the link.

madhatter wrote:But given that the most ISTPs will relate to the first two criteria from the Wiki page, I can see how it could seem like we all have alexithymia. There was actually an old thread about this on PerC in the ISTP forum. I'll have to dig it up. [Edit:] Here's the link.

I see, I even posted in that thread. Was right when I joined.

Well, it's kind of like Asperger's in my mind, I'm not entirely sure where some sort of autism kicks in or differentiation is drawn to determine who's fitting in and who is not.

I guess being emotionally 'neutral' is rather accurate, but being 'neutral' is, for me, also a synonym for indifferent, and thus apathy.

By the definition of Alexithymia apathy when one would expect an emotional response seems to make itself a fit.

I can tell what my overall state is (sad, happy, indifferent, angry, tired, bitter, annoyed) but as the words imply, it's all rudimentary and/or extreme(s). I just don't have any more words for my emotional states.

To bump this, after some reading (since I'm still sorta convinced I fall within the sphere) I've noticed that Alexithymia is not a disease or a diagnose, but rather mechanism that comes alongside of a different issue.

For instance the cliché example; traumatic childhood trauma / experiences. Here's the chance of someone developing Alexithymia traits - Alexithymia would practically be a wall/shield to keep oneself save from something, that apparently and some point messed with you quite inappropriately.

Basically meaning it's at best a symptom of something else/bigger. Curing it however can be worse than living with its traits - but perhaps, also better.

Bump.

In fact scratch Alexithymia.

I consider myself to be highly schizoid by now - it basically explains most the shit going on.

ISTP'ness in and of itself aren't enough to explains my degree of weirdness in quite a few aspects.

Still, even then it's just what it is and I gotta make of it what I will.

Schizoid...consulting wikipedia now. Get back to you about that one.

Secret Schizoid + Schizoid sexuality pretty much nails it for me (although I couldn't honestly admit I'm not interested due to primal fear, yet)

Out of the listed DSM Symptoms the bold apply

Neither desires nor enjoys relationships or human interaction, including being part of a family
Almost always chooses solitary activities
Has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person
Takes pleasure in few, if any, activities
Lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
Appears indifferent to praise or criticism by others
Shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affect

Add to that a lack expressing emotion to the point I don't even (consciously) feel impulses anymore. I can't get seriously angry and have rage burst outs. Unfortunately aggression happens to be a powerful tool however, if one can wield it skilfully. I never could use it skilfully, but at least at some point in life I still had the capability of having the tool in and of itself left.

Back in the day I used to bottle up and explode (also a symptom) - but even that's gone these days. The healthy way of doing things would probably be by letting it out little by little as it builds up, but I just can't do that.

ICD List:

Emotional coldness, detachment or reduced affect.
Limited capacity to express either positive or negative emotions towards others.
Consistent preference for solitary activities.
Very few, if any, close friends or relationships, and a lack of desire for such.
Indifference to either praise or criticism.
Taking pleasure in few, if any, activities.
Indifference to social norms and conventions.
Preoccupation with fantasy and introspection.
Lack of desire for sexual experiences with another person.

Still, being Schizoid, or being acknowledged as such would require one to suffer from the symptoms (at least by a bunch of the listed) - most Schizoids however wouldn't say they suffer, they plainly adapted. The only thing truly weighing me down at this point (aside from being incapable of using aggression as a tool anymore) is "Taking pleasure in few, if any, activities." - it makes life utmost mundane and only causes my introversion (Ti) to skyrocket due to lack of interesting stimuli. Additionally there's the on and off of desiring relationships - currently I can't say I'd crave for one, but still be nice if I did. I however experience the 'feeling of self-loss' quite heavily whenever I let people close to me (a possible relationship setting) and I just rubberband all over the place. I also experience the 'projection' quite heavily. Not so much a 'loss of reality' per se, but I wouldn't know whether or not what I'm picking up intuitively is true, or being projected by me. This as well however only applies to potential relationships - outside of that my intuition is usually quite accurate.

I'm fine with most the other 'drawbacks' (well, advantages even, perhaps ).

Funnily enough, although I share most of these traits, they see to dampen and increase throughout the year. Basically I'm having phases or up's and down's. During my ups I can become quite open and willing to take risks, currently however I'm just drowning within self-pity and misanthropy.

Intimate fun fact: During my last sexual encounters (or physical intimacy anyway) I actually started shaking, without having any clue whatsoever as to why.

There's a few books on the subject, but I s'pose it's the deep rooted primal fear of abandonment, or disappointment. For all I know, it certainly had a splendid ground to grow on in retrospective

Many of these things I don't think outsiders would ascribe to me (most aren't close enough to me to possibly be capable of that anyway), but as far as my own introspective look goes, it's a sure hit. Metaphorically I tend to put it that way; inside of me somewhere is this garden eden, surrounded by 10 ton brick wall - inaccessible to me, as well as anyone else. Almost like everything that makes life life is suppressed in there.

EDIT:

Special edit for Madhatter, here's an excerp of an amazon review on "Grundformen der Angst: Eine tiefenpsychologische Studie" by Fritz Rielmann on Schizoidität.

... Gefühlsabläufe und Verstandeserfahrungen laufen gleichsam getrennt, verschmelzen nicht zu einheitlichem Leben. Mit wachsendem Autismus verliert der schizoide Mensch immer mehr das Interesse an der Welt und den Menschen. Die Schwerstgestörten machen sich selbst zum Maßstab aller Dinge. Dies Kann zu größenwahnsinniger Überheblichkeit und Selbstvergottung führen. Ethik und Moral sind für Schizoide fragwürdig.

Nicht selten entwickeln diese Menschen eine "Herrenmoral", für deren Angehörige andere Regeln gelten als für in ihren Augen "Schwache".

Menschen mit stark schizoider Struktur leiden nicht an ihrem Wesen, sondern sie fühlen sich gesund. Oft ist es ihr Umfeld , das lernen muss sich abzugrenzen, um psychisch nicht auf der Strecke zu bleiben.
...

The bold part, especially the 'oneself being the measure everyone else is judged by' is utmost accurate in my case. Misanthropy as aforementioned gets a 'check' also. Still, while I sorta think I am the 'be all end all' I generally do it mockingly rather than truly believing in it. That part however describes the persona I adopted over the last summer when I had blast again, for a change. I consider my ethik and morals to be highly refined, though (may be just the ISTP nature, though).

I relate to a couple of the schizoid traits, but I think it's because I have the dismissing-avoidant attachment style, which correlates closely to Schizoid Disorder. For instance, I have few relationships outside of my family, and pretty much happy to keep it that way. However, I do have a handful of friends now, but I didn't used to. I also think some of the traits of schizoid sexuality relate to me as well, except I've gone the route of sexual abstinence. Part of this is religious beliefs, but mostly is because I just haven't been that interested in anyone. Emotional intimacy makes me extremely uncomfortable.

But I think you might be on the money for yourself, Erbse. I see a lot of schizoid tendencies in your posts.

Very interesting excerpt by the way. If you could just clarify one word for me: Schwerstgestörten. Leo.org has failed me.

madhatter wrote:Very interesting excerpt by the way. If you could just clarify one word for me: Schwerstgestörten. Leo.org has failed me.

Schwerstgestört = Most damaged (literal translation), or in this context a person that exhibits the strongest symptoms associated with the 'illness'.

Regardless, I'd not consider myself to be on the Autism spectrum, though - that's the sole claim I disagree with. I may be an oddball, but compared to the Asperger classmate I'm the most normal person to ever have lived. Well, or at least I'm less annoying anyway.

Schizoid traits relates well with introversion as a whole, so most INTP / ISTP / INTJ and probably ISTJ's are likely to at least loosely share some traits, but not in all their severity as portrayed in in-depth analysis of the symptoms. It may even be solely limited to introverted thinkers for most part. Given that Alexithymia and Schizoid symptoms have existed since the beginning of modern times, it's likely that Jung established his types including these 'disorders' as he saw them as personality traits.

Now however, I'm not saying that introversion as result is a sickness while extroversion isn't (although obviously to an extend it is by societal standards) - I don't feel particularly ill, either. In fact I feel just fine and reach the level of contentedness I need to have fun in life, as the last summer has proven. Thus one has to look at the topic with a slight tongue in cheek attitude and not take it too seriously, however severe some of the mentioned symptoms are for oneself.

Supposedly Schizoid people make less than 1% of the population, but I figure, by looking at it, that number is complete hogwash. 40-50%, another estimate, I consider a tad too high. End of the song being however, there's a fair share of Schizoids out there who do not have an issue with who or what they are and thus never even consider getting help - and frankly, the type of help that's out there (therapy) isn't the most appealing to me either. For that my 'suffering' is far too little Inevitably you can't miss something you've never had, or cannot remember. The past days I happened to be quite detached from the world and myself, which is why I dug into the subject for the time being.

The biggest downfall here being, Schizoids are capable of therapy-ing themselves just fine if people weren't emotional flunky balls getting all butthurt and leave during the process of a Schizoid settling - ironically they seem to live the highly sought after moral virtues a lot better than the emotional wrecks who claim they did (within relationships) - namely: Trust (once it's established), not cheating, loyalty, etc.

Currently:

Gefühlsabläufe und Verstandeserfahrungen laufen gleichsam getrennt, verschmelzen nicht zu einheitlichem Leben.

This hits the nail on the head just perfectly. The conclusion to be drawn by me here, is, that emotions are vital in building up motivation and drive - except that I don't normally can tap into that stream and have it freely available to me.

Yeah, the Wikipedia article mentioned this, and I agree with it to a certain extent: that the Schizoid Personality Disorder might not be a disorder, but rather just part of the avoidant attachment style. So is schizoid a personality disorder or just a certain type of personality? Disorder implies that there is something clinically wrong with the person, and I don't know if that's the case. If we're classifying certain types of personalities as disorders now, then that means every single human being probably has a disorder. Hm, no wonder this world is screwed up...who woulda thunk.

Grabbed the aforementioned book, and I still think I've found a match.

Although, I'm 'lucky' to share the good traits of the disorder, rather than bat-shit-insane hardocre symptoms that can manifest.

Granted, Shizoid as a whole may be coined onto inferior Fe alongside of introversion - so losely most of us will likely at least relate one way or the other, but not necesarrily exhibit any of the symptoms.

Still, I'm quite glad to have stumbled accross this, as the I know can think of methods to 'therapy' myself, if so I please

Almost through the book.

Highly recommend it to anyone interested in some serious principal psychology. The book is pure gold, and no matter your short coming or mental disorders - they can all be broken down to one sole and simple thing: Fear. It's easy written and light to digest - while quite revealing and mind-blowing at the same time, for anyone with a shred of introspection anyway.

Is this the "Grundformen der Angst: Eine tiefenpsychologische Studie" book? Is there an English translation?

madhatter wrote:Is this the "Grundformen der Angst: Eine tiefenpsychologische Studie" book? Is there an English translation?

Yes, that one.

http://www.isbs.com/partnumber.asp?cid=27397&pnid=297891 That'd be it I guess.

Gotta see if it's available on Amazon or any shop of your choice.